Phil Cole 0:05
Hello, and welcome to the dental education Podcast, the podcast series where we share knowledge and experience to provide value to you and your dental practice. I'm your host, Phil Cole. And in today's episode, we're going to be talking about insurances, both personal and business retirement plans. And I have the privilege of being joined by Shawn Johnson of tree, Lauren Hazel, who will be sharing his thoughts and answering some questions that we have for him. So welcome, and thanks for being on Shawn.
Shawn Johnson 0:36
Oh, thanks, feel happy to be here.
Phil Cole 0:39
So tell me a little bit about first of all, your company and give us just a little bit of background and on that. Yeah,
Shawn Johnson 0:47
great love to talk about three Lauren. Hi. So I've been with our firm for nearly 25 years now. And three Lord High School was like the original niche company back in 59. The whole company originated because orthodontist wanted to have a disability insurance plan designed for their national association. So we were laser focused on dental specialty from day one. Since that time, we've now become the partner of six national dental specialty associations. We have over 27,000 dentists and physicians as clients, and we help them on a national basis. No matter where they work, play and live. We help them with their personal insurances like disability, life insurance, long term care, home, auto, all those type of things, their business insurances, malpractice insurance, if they open a business, all their business package, workers comp data breach, by sales if they have partners. But the core of what we do is always from a financial planning perspective, we're very concerned about the whole picture and all these recommendations. So we have a very robust wealth management and financial planning division, where we can help the doctors install retirement plan, for example, in their practice, as well as outside investments, but really, our heart is, is helping them create a process to help them reach their goals through the financial planning process. So those are the areas that we can help dentists and physicians. I think that, you know, just with our laser focus, we are best in class, that's what we do. We, we researched everything that's available in the marketplace and all those different areas, and try to bring best in class solutions to the niche markets of dentistry and medicine. So
Phil Cole 2:49
I mean, you named off a bunch. And I know that when I talk to with when we're dealing with transitions and buyers and sellers and so forth, that we a lot of times I run into, like insurance companies will only do so much. I mean, you basically is there any ones that you don't do? I mean, because I know malpractice is always one of those things. That when we were talking earlier, that is a kind of a you always got to go somewhere else for that. And you can't normally get that into under one hood. I mean, you guys basically cover everything under one hood, right?
Shawn Johnson 3:23
Yeah, you know, in my industry typically you're like a life and health specialists so you have your license to do you know the life and disability type of stuff. Are you are your property and casualty a PNC specialist, so you really just do the malpractice. Sometimes you do malpractice and business insurances, or you're, you know, a generalist in wealth management, right? So, it's very unusual to have it all under one house. And that's really where we pride ourselves so that we can, we can have a one stop white glove service to tie all these services and solutions into 111 relationship. And that really resonates with people.
Phil Cole 4:06
Right? Okay, so I have a dentist, we have our buyer advocate program, of course and saw when we're dealing with the buyers and stuff, they're they're looking into all kinds of different things. And of course, when the bank say that they have to, you know, depending on the bank, gotta get some insurance and stuff that it just prompts the prompts the question to come out and so I guess we'll we'll start with that first question as what are what do you want dentists and medical doctors when it comes to buying or starting up their first practice? Whether it be a startup or buying a practice that's already in existence? What do you feel are the insurances I know I got my opinions but what are your What are your opinions on what insurances that they they really should have when starting their brand new practice?
Shawn Johnson 4:58
I mean, presumably will They're taking a loan, right? So the lender is going to require certain insurances for approval. And really, the way I like to explain it is there's two areas that we need to be worried about from an insurance perspective. One is insuring the doctor, right? Because the doctors and dentists, they're creating the income to pay back the loan. So banks are concerned about that, and you should be as well, because if you can't work, the debt, so needs to be repaid in some way. And the other part is the business insurances, like for the property or for your employees, those type of things. So banks will typically say, hey, in order to provide your approval, we may need a life insurance policy assigned. Right, we need at least proof of disability insurance. As a minimum, then on the property and casualty business side, they're gonna say we want to make sure you have malpractice or professional liability enforce, right? And then we want to make sure that you have a business owners policy, which is basically like a homeowner's policy for your business, fire damage, water damage, liability insurance, general liability insurance, and there. But there's also features like, what happens if I get sued by an employee? So there's employment practice liability, what happens if my data somehow is accessed or I have a ransomware situation, so there's cyber and data breach in there, and there's workers compensation in there as well. So that's the basic basic package that a bank is going to say, check all these boxes, I would say if I separate those again, and talk just on the life and disability side, you have your personal disability leaves, you should to protect your income, right, that's your that's going to replace what you're using to buy a lifestyle for yourself and your family. Right, the last thing you want to do is assign that loan for the bank. Now, they may accept it, but you're taking on another loan could be half a million dollars to a million or more. So the payment could be six 7002, what less than 12,000? Who knows in that range. And if all you had is your personal disability, you become disabled, and that needs to go to the bank, what are you going to log on? Right? So suggestion is always make sure to keep your personal disability, for your personal use and don't have it collaterally assigned or somehow in danger of the bank having first dibs on it. Same thing with life insurance, I'd really like to keep your personal life insurance for your personal use only you really inexpensive term life policy for the amount of your loan. And with that you make a loved one, your beneficiary, and you do a collateral assignment so that if you were to pass away, the bank only gets what's owed to them. Right. So those are the two things I would say is you want to make sure you keep the personnel on a disability side, there's two things that you want to consider. One is there's business loan protection, disability insurance, that says if you become disabled, it'll pay your monthly obligation back on the loan. And the other one is business overhead expense, disability insurance. And that has to do with the costs of running that practice. You basically are the production line, right? If you're not there, a lot of the revenue is going to dry up. But we all know in this day and age, how hard it is to attract and retain employees. Right? So if you become disabled, you want to have some a policy in force to pay for your office expenses, keep all your key people employed, because you're hoping to get back as soon as possible. Right. So that's those are the three things personal disability to take care of your personal lifestyle, business loan protection disability, that will pay back your monthly obligation on the loan, until you're able to return or need to sell and then business overhead to pay all the office expenses and retain key staff and pay not put yourself in the hole while you're out in trying to get back. Right. So that's the life and disability side. And then on the property and casualty, I would say the bank's going to tell you the minimum that you have to have right for your for all the different coverages. That's one of the biggest mistakes is don't just do the minimum, really look at it and say okay, or malpractice insurance, but kind of how am i What kind of procedures am I doing? Am I working with patients that are under general anesthesia and is that higher risk? So what should my limits be? You know, the bank wants me to have for my business owners policy $500,000 of coverage or 300,000. But really, how much would it really cost to replace my office if there was a fire or complete loss? Right, right. And then the bank doesn't even suggest typically How much data breach you should have per cyber protection, or how much employment practice liability insurance you should have. And typically on a base policy, you might have between 10,000 to $50,000 of coverage. Let me explain what those are silly employment practice liability is if an employee chooses to sue you, right for discrimination in some some way. And of course, cyber data breaches, if you have a ransom or your data is leaked, right? So the base policy could be 10 to $50,000, depending upon what the advisor puts on there. But the bank doesn't even address that. So if you just go in and say, I'm only going to do with the bank requires, you're really putting yourself at risk, I had a client buy an existing practice, he was right out of residency. So you're buying the practice, but you're also buying the problems of the practice as well as the assets, right. He tried to introduce some new software, it's a new procedures. And one of the employees had a really difficult time learning those new procedures. And he let her go, and he was sued for age discrimination within the first six months, and the employment practice liability insurance is there to protect you from the civil lawsuits. If you didn't have that he would have been wiped out, totally wiped out. And same thing with data breach data breach, I don't have to talk about it too much. People are very aware of it. Now. We had a client that, you know, their their computer system was taken ransom, they paid a lot of money to get it released, filed the claim insurance company reimbursed him for that ransom, and then also took care of, you know, the credit monitoring for the for the, for the patients, that Lifelab type of things. And that also has a feature in there to help you if there's court costs as well. So that was a lot I know. And I kind of rambled on. But I think that whenever you're looking at starting your buying, you want to sit down with somebody this expert in this that understands medicine and dentistry, and can understand both sides and give you the complete picture to make sure you have a comprehensive protection plan in play.
Phil Cole 12:07
So So you mentioned business on the business ownership that you're putting the cybersecurity underneath there. One of the things that I I hear all the time is or what I see advertised a lot to the to doctors and dentists and stuff is a cyber, like special separate cybersecurity insurance. Does that just is that just then, to me with you saying that you're putting it in underneath the business ownership? Umbrella?
Shawn Johnson 12:36
Policy? Yeah.
Phil Cole 12:37
Yeah, you sell in? That's more just a sales pitch to people that try to get you know, just to add on? Or is it? If they already have a business ownership policy? Is that it doesn't have cybersecurity? Is that what they're trying to just you do it separately? Or what do you do?
Shawn Johnson 12:55
So the business owners policy, you'll see Bob, as the acronym for it has a baseline of both employment practice liability, as well as data breach, right? But you can boost those up as kind of like, for lack of a better word, you could you could add a rider to make those features larger. And at one point, the market kind of fluctuates. You know, during COVID, it was, there were times that we couldn't get even 100,000. Now, depending upon the company, we can on that base underneath that business owners policy package, if you will, to maybe a million dollars of coverage for both the EPL or the data breach. If we want to go higher than that, we might need to look at a standalone policy to get higher limits. So you might be hearing advertisements for more maybe a standalone policy, you know, or they might there might be carriers out there that we don't work with that don't provide anything above those minimums of 10 to 50,000. Right. So I would have to know more about about, you know, what they're advertising Exactly. But I think now with the marketplace and the major carriers out there, we're in a pretty good position to just add the feature or increase it via rider for lack of a better word, to get to the right kind of limits without going and adding a standalone policy. The caveat, of course, is if you're dealing with like a larger group practice, or maybe a practice this station that sells for DSL type of territory, then we would look at then we'd look at standalone and getting much higher limits.
Phil Cole 14:32
Okay, so I mean, I just it comes across quite a bit. So disability disability I know is one that I you know, just kind of go a little bit more on that. Disability is one of those. That's always been a tough one. But yet, you know, I see people skimp on that the most. For some reason, I don't know why, especially when you have the stats of one out of every two I know in the dental world rolled one out of every two dentists will have to leave the dental, their dental profession early because of a disability. I just met with a doctor last night we were talking and and only six years into practice and that started to have hand tremors. So he's not allowed. And now now having to go back to school to, you know, do something else to be able to, you know, take care of his family. When when it comes to that kind of stuff, what is it that? You know? Well, let me give you another example. I also had a periodontist that I worked with for a long time. And he has disability insurance, he thought was covered 100%. And once he now had to, you know, in an injury, and so forth, it now becomes this. He's fighting for six, seven months to get his disability insurance. So what are some of the triggers, I guess? Or what are some of the things that people got? I mean, obviously come to you right and and do it. But you know that you can't service every single doctor because they're going to choose something else or go somewhere cheaper, maybe, but at least if they're going to look, what are they going to me? What should they be looking at in that contract that triggers them to sit there and say, before I signed on to this, this is a crap policy?
Shawn Johnson 16:34
Yeah. So there's a few, you know, we researched, like I said in my intro, and always looking for best in class. And there's a few litmus tests. To start out with number one, can the contract language, basically the rules that are laid out, but determine how I get paid? If I have an injury or illness? Can they change? Right? And there's a lot of contracts out there that might be offered by an association or an employer, that is called a group contract. And in a group contract, the insurance company can change the language and raise the rates at anytime, right on a classwide basis. They can't just do it to you, but they can do it everybody that they insure? Yep. You know, our philosophy has always been that this is protecting your most important asset. So while we put that at risk, so we recommend contracts that cannot change. So that's the first thing. And the technical term for that is non cancelable. guaranteed renewable, right, you'll see that just means that your contract, and your premiums are going to stay the same tool for the full contract period, age 65. So once we check that box, I think it's important to evaluate the financial stability of the companies you're dealing with, you know, whenever there's a an insurance company has a financial rating, Moody's Standard and Poor's, all that saying is another company that rates you has come in and looked at your books. And they're giving you a rating based on your financial ability to pay future claims. That's the whole that's their whole criteria for the rating. Right? Simplified down. So if we're looking at a company, and is a B rated or not at the highest ratings, when you look at another company is about the same cost. And it's an A rated, why would you provide a B, right you want, you want to always make the best business decision possible with the information you have at the time you making a decision. So look, it's really important to look at those ratings and Comdex ratings, like all those confusing ratings out there, all the services and put it all into an easy to use zero to 100 100 being the best rating system. So we'd want to have something always over 90, because you know, they have a better chance according to those ratings to be in a financial position to pay future claims. Right? So that those two criteria bring it down to probably about six or seven companies in the industry. And then we went on occupation that says if you can't perform your job, whether you're a clinical dentist or a cardiologist, whatever your job is, that's a criteria criteria to get paid, that you will receive your full benefit, you can't do that. And if you choose to do another job, you can make as much as you want to and you you still get paid your full check every month, right? So yeah, six, six or seven companies, then it comes down to if you leave it alone, six or seven companies, you're doing okay? But there's two or three that are just completely cost prohibitive when you spreadsheet them and look at them, and in our opinion don't aren't bringing the value for the additional price. So it gets down to three or four core ones. And then we're getting into educating people about the nuances, right. So what if you start with those, you know, kind of the policy Change? Is it non cancelable? guaranteed renewable is it own occupation, you'll get down to a manageable list that you can evaluate. And hopefully you're talking to an advisor. One of the things that frustrates me about my my industry is, firstly, disability insurance is so confusing, so hard to have a transparent comparison from policy to policy, we looked at it, there was one policy alone between all the different options, you could configure up to 2 million different ways with one policy. And you if you take that and say, Okay, now I'm going to compare six policies, and am I really comparing all the same features as apples to apples as I can get them. And then I'm actually getting a premium that represents like a true comparison or not, it's really difficult. So, you know, we, we have so that all of our advisors, nobody's commissioned on our team, they're geared up to give transparent advice, and there's no incentive is really about, these are the major companies, here are the features, here's the true pricing on a close to apples to apples basis, what's right for you. And that's what you want to look forward with an advisor independent client centric, that has the knowledge and ability to give that that review for you. So that
Phil Cole 21:21
in that situation where you're said that you know that the language can't be changed and stuff that also constitute because this periodize, and I'm thinking about his contract got bought out by another company. Okay, and, and so because I got bought out, then I'm assuming they must have that that first contract may be allowed for there to be verbiage change, because that's what happened. The old one he was covered the new one they had different so that they got it themselves out of it. Let's just put it that way. It
Shawn Johnson 21:53
depends if as a group policy, and a new company bought it and change the policy form, with the noncancelable guaranteed renewable companies out there. When a when a nother company buys the block of business, my experience has been that they're on the hook for for honoring that original contract language for the pool contract period. All right, yeah. So
Phil Cole 22:15
interesting, because I just like I said, it's disability is one of those things where, you know, I can talk about all the time. And again, it's very similar to the life insurance policies and stuff and what I run into a lot of times with the what's the best, definitely the younger doctors coming out buying their first practices and stuff, even with the life insurance policies, it's always going after the association. You know, that insurances and stuff that are just, I mean, they're just garbage, and they're only going to, like, 40-45 years old and stuff? And I'm like, Well, I mean, do you realize it by time, you're 45, and now you gotta go for the rest of the insurance, you're gonna be paying such a high premium. So what I don't understand why that even exists.
Shawn Johnson 22:15
Or they're under the misconception, and I'll be financially independent by the time I'm 50. You know, and then I, you know, I talk with them and say, well, that's a great goal, and it can happen, but how many dentists or doctors, you know, that are not working at 50? Know what I mean? So let's really, let's think about insurance is about worst case scenario, not a best case scenario. So in on the disability side, you know, it's, it's, it is such a vitally important thing that you understand the contract you have, but that you're working with somebody that can be there when you go to file a claim, right? We're, we're filing claims from policy policies that were put in force over 30 years ago, we have a, we have a contingency plan for all of our clients. It's not just one advisor out there. And if they're gone, you have nobody to turn to. There's a terrific problem with orphan policies in my industry. And even if you're not an orphan, and you have your agents still around, how many claims have they helped people thought file with an insurance company? And how can they assist you? We did, she's, I think Azuna research and in 2022, our clients received over $40 million in disability claims alone. So we're dealing with planes a couple times a week. And we know the process so deal with somebody that can say we know the process, we're going to be here in 10 or 20 or 30 years we can assist you and you're not going to be by yourself in this if and when you need to use it.
Phil Cole 24:29
So the other big one is and since you guys have it is I get questions our coaches and everybody gets questions all the time to is okay. Staff, right the team and how hard how hard it is to find them should I offer benefits, different things like that in the benefits package always comes up? And maybe I want to down the road, blah, blah, blah. What is it just give me a brief understanding of like when it comes to the like Retirement and the and and, you know, employee benefit packages, what are some of the more common? And what are the ones that you know that you like for them to know that they can get into that? That game? I guess?
Shawn Johnson 25:14
Yeah, I think Well, the first thing that comes to mind when it comes to work can benefit both the owner and the employee. It's putting in a qualified retirement plan, right? Because that is after you invest in your practice, which is the best investment you can make, because it's pretty more income. And you got it to the point that you have positive and consistent cash flow and a surplus. Now, how do we reduce taxes and save money for the long run and provide a benefit for your employees. So you start to look at the qualified plans. And there's basically two different qualified plan series defined contribution plans, and defined benefit plans. Defined contribution plans are what most of us are aware of like the 401 K, for example, it's defining how much you can contribute into an account every year, right? So that's gonna be the first step to look at. And whenever you set that up, there's you do a census, and you list your ages and your staff ages, their start date, their incomes, then an actuary looks at it and says, Okay, based on your demographics in the testing, here's how much you can put into your account. And here's how much you're into their accounts with their own money from their paycheck, then here's how much you would need to put in as a benefit to their both your account and the employees accounts. Right. So, so you go through that exercise, and typically, you know, you're saving, presumably about 40% in taxes, right, by doing the whenever you deduct your contributions. So the litmus test that we look at is if, if your staff contributions are lower than the tax savings are close, you know, then it's a no brainer, why wouldn't you do a benefit for you a benefit for your staff? Right, especially when, because of the cost savings is cost nubert, from a tax perspective is costing you very little. And it's a really nice way to help retain employees and build, build your net worth up. Right. So that's the first step. And then once you the most common is called a safe harbor for and 1k. The owner of a practice can put depending upon the year, it's, it's moving a little bit somewhere, I think, is 66,000, this year, something like that, depending upon if you're over 50 into your account, and then you need to put money into their accounts. If you've done that, and there's still surplus, and you have the ability to save more money, then you have the defined benefit plan. And basically, you keep the 401k. And then on top of that you can put a defined benefit plan. Once again, you have an actuary, typically a more sophisticated one, because they actually have to do some, some reverse engineering and testing some actually road testing for a defined benefit plan. But that can go on top of your 401k can provide added benefits to you as well as to your employees added pre tax savings. And you know, we have people putting up to well over $100,000 More way into their account, and then still having the benefit of all that tax deduction and still being able to do money into their staffs account as an added benefit. So those are the two ones to look at, I would say you want to be a little bit more of a mature practice when you look at the defined benefit. But absolutely the defined contribution, Safe Harbor 401 K plan mean, that should be something that should be evaluated as soon as you have surplus and cash flow to do it. This kind of a no brainer, as long as the numbers work. Is
Phil Cole 29:00
that is that? Is that something that as far as in like, if you were if if a new buyer was going into a practice? And of course, there's cash flow there. Is there? Is there like a range? Or is there any type of thing that they should be looking at? I'm just thinking of the spire that I that I'm working with, right now. You know, if there's two $300,000 the cash flow, is there something that that you feel is like a trigger to say I'm ready to be to bring that in?
Shawn Johnson 29:31
I mean, I think it's really if they don't do it, right and it's not there's not an expense they're taking that money as income after taxes, right? So really, it's just do you need that for lifestyle needs your income? And if if because either you're going to clear it out, do your taxes, pay the taxes on it, and then it's going to be used for for your personal lifestyle needs, right? And then maybe or maybe you invest it Uh, after taxes, or you can take it and not take it out and put it in pre tax and not be taxed on that money. So if you're, if you have the income coming through that you are comfortable and you can satisfy your lifestyle, right, and then there's a surplus, I mean, you probably want to have no $100,000, depending upon the size of the practice, you know, if I was a solo doc, and I had four or five employees, that, you know, there probably be a really, really safe number to say, Hey, this is how much that I don't need. Let me look at redirecting that into like a safe harbor 401 K, or defined contribution plan of some sort, so that I get the tax benefits in my staff gets some benefits as well. You know, after that, then, you know, the defined benefit plan is kind of a similar thought, you know, okay, now you're really cooking practice is doing really well. Why are we paying all these taxes? Can we do another plan on top to take advantage of some tax advantaged savings and provide a little bit more benefits to your staff?
Phil Cole 31:08
Yeah, so one, not one last question. And that is, is, which I know. I mean, as a business owner, I get talked to about all the time too, and stuff, but just wondering as far as in your, your opinion, long term, you know, care insurance. What I mean, something that you feel is necessary, something that is I mean, you know, because I just look at the new average age for the dent for a dentist, at least, is now moved to 73.2 before they retire. So I always get the, you know, I always get those comments of I don't need that, you know, I'm planning on working until I'm, you know, 75 bla bla bla. I mean, what's your view on that as far as in like, up to up to the person or, I mean,
Shawn Johnson 32:06
like I have people that have been through it personally, and have had to navigate the waters of finding care and paying for care, typically want some type of protection? Right. And the claims are, are consistent. You know, I, I got long term care insurance, I mean, in the industry, so I got it when I was like 38, believe it or not, I'm really good. I'm really glad I have it. It's important is there for me, I just think about with longevity and health care improvements, we're going to be living longer. And we're going to be living longer with on the back end with, with, with issues, health issues where we might need care. Right, right. And we have no idea what kind of costs that will involve. And we really have no idea what kind of challenges or headwinds, we're going to see with the returns of your investments, right over the long run. So I think that, you know, there's basically three classifications of wealth, right, that high net worth is how high net worth, when there's high net worth very high than what altra. You know, unless you're in the author category, you probably would like to have a stop gap that alters like $30 million in hire, I think you'd want to have, you know, think you want to have a stop gap of some sort to help take care of some of those costs, especially, you know, a couple married couple, you know, I don't think it has much to do with how long you're working. It really is. First of all, we have people that have strokes in their 40s. And they need care. No one thinks about that. But the more likely thing is, but we picture the 85 year old grandfather, grandmother needing to use care. And now it's, you know, $15,000 a month. So my thought is that the industry has changed. They have some pretty innovative products now, that are not the old traditional policy, you just buy for long term care in that set. The policies are more of a hybrid now where you have a death benefit, a cash value in the long term care available. So if you buy a policy like that, you know, you're going to get a benefit somehow. Right. And you should look at, you know, how do we plan for this? And isn't it smart to take some of our assets and put it in a place that will provide protection for the largest risk that we have looming after retirement? Yeah, no, I mean, I just don't think our doctors and dentists typically there's some outliers typically don't get to that level of net worth where they have no care about, about that potential exposure.
Phil Cole 34:50
I would agree with you on that one.
Shawn Johnson 34:53
I love it. I mean, we do a lot of investing and we do a lot of financial planning for them. And that's the goal but you know the income typically aren't there, you can only do too much with two hands or in a few associates. Right,
Phil Cole 35:04
right. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I mean, I can talk some more and then basically definitely going to have you back on because there's some more things I'd like to drill down on with with you even more on the on those malpractice. We didn't get a chance to talk about that, and so forth. So definitely have you back again. But for everybody else, I know that, as we always do with our podcasts, we'll have your information on there and stuff, but someone that's listening, just wants to immediately check you out and to be able to get a hold of you. What's the best way to get a hold of you, John?
Shawn Johnson 35:42
Sure. So we still have our old toll free number and they can find myself or any one of our advisors nationally at 800-345-6040. My email directly is [email protected]. So first initial last name, and this is where it gets tricky. At treloaronline.com and that's also the website address. So hop on the website, there's a lot of great material there to go through as well.
Phil Cole 36:16
Awesome, well, as everybody knows, we got some amazing information today from Shawn and definitely helped me to be able to hit that even harder that disability I think it's just so important. Because it's just one of those things where everybody's chimps on that one and yet it's it's something that is I talked to the older doctors so much that run into it. And like I said, just talking with somebody that was very, very young, five years out and had that, you know, happened to them. It's it's so common, I just don't think dentists and doctors understand how common that is. So hearing what you had to have was was awesome. And so we'll have you back because I want like I said, I want to get into the malpractice, which is another hot topic for us. So I really, really want to thank you for helping us out today. If you enjoy your our show, please rate review us on Apple Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Phil Cole and I want to thank everybody for listening to us today.
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